EMDR Therapy and Mental Health Support with Susie Morgan, LMFT, BCETS

Betty Rocker (00:15):

What’s up, Rockstars Coach Betty Rocker here, and I’m really glad you are here too. At some point, you may have heard me talk about a type of therapy that I used called EMDR, which stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. And it’s really known for its ability to treat PTSD and traumatic events. There’s a lot of different kinds of therapeutic practices out there, and when it comes to our mental health, it’s really important to find a good fit and the right tools for addressing our individual concerns so we can live more full and meaningful lives. After going through a really difficult period of my own life and being diagnosed with anxiety and depression, one of the recommendations I was given was to seek EMDR treatment.

(01:02)
I’ll share a bit more about my experience with it on the show today because the person I’ve brought to talk to us is the amazing therapist I worked with, and I am really excited for you to meet her. She really helped me change my brain and my life. Susie Morgan is a licensed marriage and family therapist, board certified expert in trauma stress, and a certified EMDR therapist specializing in the treatment of complex PTSD and attachment trauma. In addition to her practice, she’s also an E-M-D-R-I-A approved consultant and trainer, and the founder of the Precision EMDR Academy, a boutique training agency that equips and mentors clinicians to provide safe and effective EMDR therapy. She is dedicated to providing both a high level of care in her own therapeutic practice and advancing the excellence in the field of EMDR. I felt that she was uniquely equipped to share more about EMDR with us and give you a sense of what it’s used for, who might benefit from it, and what kind of things it treats, and how to find and vet a great practitioner. So join me in welcoming her to the show. Welcome, Susie. It is so great to have you here with me. Thanks so much for being here.

Susie Morgan (02:22):

Thank you for having me. This is absolutely my honor, so thank you.

Betty Rocker (02:26):

Oh my gosh. Well, I’ve been so excited to have a conversation about EMDR so that people would learn about it, people who’ve maybe heard about it would get more familiar with it, because I feel like it’s sort of, it’s a newer practice when it comes to the therapeutic arts in the greater scheme of therapy. Is that correct?

Susie Morgan (02:51):

Yes and no, because that’s a little bit of a misconception because it’s literally been around since 1987. And so what that means is that even though it’s not as old as obviously like Freudian therapy and those really traditional models or cognitive behavioral, it, it isn’t new. And so it’s, it actually has had plenty of time to actually develop out an incredibly robust, um, uh, like encyclopedia of research, not only showing that it treats PTSD, but also a range of other disorders that people can present with. And so it’s actually a misconception that it’s new, it’s just newer that people know about it and

Betty Rocker (03:34):

Newer that people know about it. Well, would maybe, like I should ask the main question, which is, what does EMDR stand for and what does it specifically treat? Because I think that’s really interesting. It’s, it’s very unique in the therapeutic arts.

Susie Morgan (03:50):

Okay. So the, the inventor of EMDR would’ve renamed it. She said if she had had a chance, but by the time it was more well known and being researched, she was like, okay, this is what it’s called. So it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And so let me break that down. So it uses eye movement. Traditionally, you can use other means to allow for the, the brain to basically replicate what happens during REM sleep, we think in order to actually reconsolidate memories. And so you can use other tasks, other bilateral types of movement with, uh, with tactile or even tones in order to create this effect. So that’s the eye movement part of it. It’s using this specific bilateral, uh, sets of, uh, movements in order to stimulate the brain to enter into a memory reconsolidation mode. And then the desensitization and reprocessing are the two things that it’s doing.

(04:53)
What it’s doing is it’s taking the activation of these memories and desensitizing that. So taking, taking the charge out of it, taking that bite out of the memory, and then it’s reprocessing it. So it’s actually connecting it up to adaptive information and adaptive information. Is this reality based or soothing or, um, positive information that says it’s over and really undoes the learning and connects it up to what actually the brain already knows. But when a memory is maladaptively stored, it doesn’t take in the whole context of things. It doesn’t take in the fact that things are over or that in fact, even though you know it’s true, like it doesn’t feel true. So it it, it connects all that up.

Betty Rocker (05:39):

What is the eye movement part of eye movement desensitization reprocessing? Is your eye just going back and forth or you snapping your fingers? What’s happening? Is there lights?

Susie Morgan (05:49):

So over the years, gadgets have been invented and, uh, and because basically the key is you are trying to have that client’s eyes go back and forth across the field division as rapidly as they can physically tolerate while holding the memory material in mind. And so, um, so you can have someone, uh, holding a, you know, a set of buzzers in their hands that light up and they can look back and forth between the lights. The buzzing is also an alternative that allows there to be a tactile level of stimulation for that back and forth so that, um, people who can’t use their eyes for this process actually can have an effective form of bilateral stimulation. There are eye, like, like eye movement machines where basically you can, um, you can follow a light bar back and forth, or there’s like these boxes you can hold that will cause your lights to go back, cause your eyes to go back and forth as you follow the lights.

(06:49)
There are computer programs that have a little bouncing ball that go back and forth, but bottom line is you don’t need machines. You just need some mechanism for eyes to go back and forth. So I do, uh, I do EMDR online all the time now without any machinery whatsoever, without any special programs. I just have people pinching their fingers back and forth with their eyes held about a shoulder width apart. They follow their own pinches, and that produces the effective eye movement. Um, but basically what we’ve shown in research is that eye movement is the most effective way to create the memory reconsolidation process that we’re looking for. However, these other methods tactile and, uh, an auditory can produce a similar level, but there does seem to be more than, uh, more at play than just that your eyes are going back and forth. Uh, there is, there’s the possibility that that is, um, activating a rem like mechanism of sleep.

(07:48)
We see chemical, chemical, similar chemicals produced in the brain, similar brainwaves. Um, it also appears that work taxing working memory is one of the reasons why it is effective. It’s not as comfortable, it’s not as fun to have to actually like, like do a fancy patterning with your fingers while you have the buzzing or matching your eye movements with your pinches. But that actually causes the difficult memory material to metabolize faster. But if you overtax working memory, you decrease on that reprocessing portion. So it’s, there’s kind of a sweet spot, and it’s different for each person on how much, how hard we want them to work while they’re doing the bilateral processing.

Betty Rocker (08:35):

What’s a, what’s a good example of, um, a maladaptive memory that someone might have that was not connecting? Right? Or what happens in, in therapy?

Susie Morgan (08:46):

So an example of a, a trauma memory would be a dog bite. So a little girl, she’s in her front yard, A dog comes by, bites her. There’s two ways the brain can go with that. One we would call maladaptive. One we would call adaptive. And so it, it, and the difference is how does the memory, um, end up being stored by the brain, which parts of the brain are involved? And so if it’s maladaptively stored, it gets at, it gets stored in almost like this original form. Like all of the, the visual sight sounds feels of that moment are just like encapsulated in time. And so she can be 30 years old and it feels like it happened yesterday when she thinks of it. So it, it stores hot in the visual cortex of the brain, the emotional cortex of the brain. And the interesting thing is the logical parts of the brain that says it’s over, you’re safe now. That sort of thing. The, that whole piece of the brain does not even come online. So it’s all sight sounds, feels, and emotions, and it’s hot and it’s stored that way rather than it’s over, I’m safe. It happened a long time ago. Now I know that, you know, you should, you know, kind of make sure that you don’t just pet a dog. You don’t know , that kind of thing,

Betty Rocker (10:10):

Right? So, so the experience that a person would have who had these two different storages of the memory is one little girl might be afraid of dogs forever because that memory’s always burning bright and burning hot with all of that stored stuff where the other little girl who’s, um, it’s not stored in a negative way. She just is more cautious in approaching dogs where the other girl might be afraid to approach a dog in that sense. Yeah. So the, the trauma impacts how we behave in different ways moving forward is what you’re saying

Susie Morgan (10:40):

In that sort of adaptive versus maladaptive piece. Adaptive is, I’m safe now on a very basic level and I can keep myself safe now, or it’s, I’m not safe. And so the body goes in a fight or flight, if anything reminds the nervous system of that incident. And there’s actually three types of trauma I think of that really, really matter. And so it’s very much expanding out the definition of the word in a, in a way that I think is crucial because there’s so many people who say, well, I don’t have trauma. I wasn’t at war, I wasn’t assaulted, that kind of thing. So, so EMDR therapy isn’t for me or thinking of myself as having trauma that I would need to reprocess through that could be affecting my symptoms. Um, that just doesn’t, that just doesn’t come in their conceptualization

Betty Rocker (11:30):

Sure.

Susie Morgan (11:31):

Of what they’re dealing with, and therefore it stops them from getting help they could get. Um, so the three types of trauma that I think are really important to understand are that big T trauma. So that’s classically what we understand as, yeah, blood fire war assault, that’s what that is conceptualized as. Then you have, uh, little t traumas or what are adverse life events. And these are things that generally people, you know, someone else might look at that and be like, well, that’s no big deal. So this is like bullying. Or it’s things like, you know, someone, someone being a jerk at work or someone calling you a name on the playground or your sister leaving you out, like that kind of thing. So, so those are your little, little to your adverse life events. But actually what’s even more critical, I think, is understanding complex with complex, uh, developmental trauma, which is more common than you might think, is when early attachment needs aren’t met.

(12:32)
And, um, or then if there’s also some abuse or things like that in those early years that it, that is really actually what can create the longest and most pervasive issues with anxiety, depression, all sorts of things that we just think of like, oh, these are mental health issues, when actually, if we go back, we’re looking at the absence of attunement or even the absence of play, which is interesting. Um, the absence of protection. Uh, this, you know, just not having the guidance you need, like how to shave your legs, how to deal with a, a bully peer. Like all of these different pieces really make a difference in the ability of that person’s nervous system to withstand the stressors that will come. And so oftentimes when those sort of developmental early attachment needs aren’t met, then you have more of a, of a susceptibility for the brain to maladaptively hold these later events. So it’s, it’s really tricky.

Betty Rocker (13:38):

Well, not, I think you explained it beautifully so that the three types, there’s the big Ts, there’s the, the little ts, which are, what did you call them? Uh, adverse events. And then there’s also the attachment issues. And, and attachment theory is absolutely fascinating. I remember that you recommended the book attached to me years ago, and it was so helpful in a, a, giving me a framework of understanding the difference between the, um, anxious avoidant and the secure attachment styles, which are those three attachment styles. And just saying them, it, it makes so much sense why anxious and avoidant would be so polarized if you guys think about that. It’s so fascinating. And then how do we create security, right? And, and different aspects of our life. But, um, that was, that was really interesting that that comes into play in, in what is treated within the scope of EMDR. Um, we wanna talk a little bit more about that. ’cause I think that’s so interesting.

Susie Morgan (14:41):

Yeah, I’d love to because it’s, it’s so much what comes in to the office when people are saying, my relationships are just not working mm-hmm . Or I keep getting into the same type of sort of damaging dynamic with my partners. Mm. And so, so what happens when those early attachment needs aren’t met is a little nervous system is so smart and so wise to sort of read the room of the relationship with their caregivers, and they actually can read the room differently with different caregivers depending on what, what will be most effective for their needs to be met. And, and to contextualize this, little mammals can’t survive without their caregivers attunement to them or their, not attunement, but without them meeting their needs. Basically. Like little mammals die if their caregiver kind of leaves them by the side of the road without things. And so, um, so humans are no different.

(15:40)
And so an infant or a toddler or things like that will realize if I cry more, you come, if I cry less, you don’t get so mad at me. That sort of thing. Mm-hmm. And so what ends up happening when you just look at anxious versus avoidant anxious is, I cry more, you’ll come mm-hmm. Avoidant is, I cry less, I’m more likely to get my needs met, I’m safer here. And then you have these very sad situations where the, the early environment is so harsh and is so both neglectful of these attachment needs as well as damaging through abuse or things like that, that the nervous system will learn. Like, okay, sometimes I cry louder, sometimes I shut down. Like it’s this whole like, like dance of just to try to get needs met in whatever little tiny way that they can. And the thing is, once the brain locks in on these things, just like trauma memories, once the brain locks in on these attachments strategies or these adaptations to their en their early environment ring keeps doing the same thing over and over and over again, whether or not the environment changes.

(16:49)
And ultimately the saddest part that I see in my, in my office is little nervous systems as they grow up, choose most naturally what feels like home. And so they’ll repeat what they, they went through when they were small, thinking they’re doing something different, but then landing in the same type of of relationship. And then, and then concluding, I’m the problem. It’s because I’m worthless, I’m unlovable, or whatever the case might be. When ultimately, like that is not the case. It’s literally just that their nervous system doesn’t know how to do something different. So that’s the really cool stuff we can do with advanced skills with EMDR therapy is not just solve these memories. Like we don’t just reprocess memories. We actually can actually restore and repair the attachment system. So it’s, um, it’s, it’s pretty magic what’s possible and

Betty Rocker (17:44):

All of that, whether you are treating, um, trauma, memory or attachment that’s gotten, it’s, I’m just picturing like a rug that got all bunched up and Right. It’s not, it’s not smooth , um, whether you’re treating any of those different things, the, the primary outcome is a sense of security, a sense of safety in the self, a sense of self that is mm-hmm . Safe and whole and, and enough, right. For so many of us who, who, you know, seek therapy. One thing that I’ve been reading a lot lately, and it’s so strange because we were gonna have this conversation and I wanted to ask you about it. How do we know that the therapy that we’re doing is right for us? That’s definitely a question. And, and two, like, why is it that there’s so much therapy that just doesn’t seem to work, I guess like, yeah, what’s going on with that?

Susie Morgan (18:41):

So a lot of the reason why therapy doesn’t work is because it doesn’t actually change the way the nervous system is operating. And so what you’re doing is you’re using really what, what can be really powerful tools, but it’s more like manually shifting a car rather than having driving an automatic, basically where you have to use these skills in order to shift the brain into that adaptive functioning. So one of the things that I think is really, really important for, uh, for EMDR therapists to understand how to do, and it hasn’t been traditionally trained, uh, but is to really be able to map out what are the primary trauma memory networks, the ways the brain has clustered together various experiences, and then is operating out of these maladaptive beliefs. So you’ll have that dog bite, but then now mom is, you know, mom is late picking you up from daycare, and somehow the brain goes, yep, I’m not safe again.

(19:44)
Or you walk by a barking dog, uh, who’s really scary on the way to soccer practice, and the brain goes, yep, not safe again. And then it, it’s basically putting all these memories together into a cluster and saying, here’s my proof of concept, I am not safe. And then anything that triggers that trauma, memory network, lights up all of that cluster of experiences, and then the nervous system responds to that. So oftentimes a, um, a client who comes in has multiple clusters, so they have one cluster proving I’m not safe. Maybe another cluster saying I’m unlovable, another cluster saying I don’t belong, or whatever it is. Like it can be any variety of those. And so if we have that lay of the land, that can be really helpful for us knowing, okay, this, this, I’m not safe is linked to these panic symptoms, or this, I’m not lovable, is linked to these attachment sort of anxious attachment type strategies, whatever the case might be.

(20:44)
But then we have this other amazing memory network that all of us have. It’s just for some of us, it’s, it’s more well developed than others. And it is the adaptive information network. It’s all those experiences of, of, you know, learning or of being loved or of being restored in some way, or having, you know, a sense of belonging as part of a culture or part of a, you know, part of a religious practice or part of a, of a spiritual group. Um, those, those best friends or those, those animals that just love us no matter what. All of that. And I think of these as trees. So, um, so basically there’s, there’s something that planted the tree in terms of the, those dark trauma memory networks. There’s an event that planted the tree, and then the tree just grew up and got bigger with all of those other events that got clustered together.

(21:37)
Well, this, this light tree, this adaptive information tree of information also has, has a way in which it was planted. That’s that early attachment system. So that’s the trunk of that tree. And some people have a spindly trunk, which means they’re much more susceptible to the wind blowing and then being taken off balance. And then they also can have various levels of degrees in which that adaptive information network has been built out by all of these other positive and re, uh, experiences of resilience, experiences of success, experiences of overcoming all that. Jess, so, so long way to, to lay the foundation for the answer to your question is basically therapies, I think do one of two things. One is they help enhance that light tree of adaptive information. So when you’re learning meditation, when you’re learning how to think of the positive, how to focus on what’s true about you, all of that, you’re really enhancing and focusing on that adaptive information memory network.

(22:45)
And, um, and so there’s so much that is positive and powerful about a lot of the therapies out there that do that. Then there’s another, um, kind of type of therapy like cognitive behavioral, where what it’s doing is it’s, it’s allowing you to challenge that activation of that negative memory network and saying, yeah, but remember it’s not true. And so you do that, that manual shifting through sort of logic yourself into the light tree. But that’s really hard and can feel like gaslighting honestly, when you’re like, but my nervous system says the trauma is what’s true. Not this other logic stuff that I might know in my head.

Betty Rocker (23:28):

That just is part of what I guess I’ve been hearing from people sometimes when they say, you know, talk therapy or certain types of talk therapy, I feel like I’m just rehashing these uncomfortable things over and over without really getting anywhere. I’m just spinning my wheels.

Susie Morgan (23:41):

That’s another type of therapy. So there is, there are types of therapy where the idea is if we have insight or if we talk enough through it, then you’ll get better. So that means you sit in the dark trace, you sit in those trauma memory networks during trauma, the, during your therapy, and that’s supposed to theoretically make you feel better, but it doesn’t actually necessarily do that because all you’re doing is sort of dwelling in the darkness. And so people are like, well, I don’t wanna go to my past. I wanna do these other things. Well, that’s great. Now all you’re doing is manually shifting into the lightness. So what we’re looking for is something that actually reconsolidate the memory actually shifts the, the, the, the learning that’s happened in the nervous system. And EMDR is not the only show in town that can do that. There are other therapies that actually can be effective with memory. Reconsolidation, EMDR therapy is just one where we do get consistent results with that when it’s done properly. And so that’s, yeah.

Betty Rocker (24:42):

That’s, that’s the R and the EMDR, the reprocessing part. Yes. Yeah, that’s where the integration happens. So I’ll share a little bit, um, that, you know, but my listeners don’t. When I first started doing EMDR therapy with Susie, it’s been several years now since we did this great work together, and we spent a couple of years doing it. I remember in the beginning I was like, well, when are we, when do we get to do the EMDR? Like, when are we gonna get to that part? And what was really amazing is her approach was so thoughtful. She was, she went in and learned where now I know the lingo, of course I didn’t at the time, my clusters, she was looking for where are the, the networks here that I need to work with. She intentionally learned the landscape of this mind that she was then going to be going into with like her fine instruments and helping to reprocess.

(25:38)
Right? So like, that was such an important part of that work. I think that, that if you don’t know about it, you, you don’t know what you don’t know, right? But I think it’s so important. And there’ve been, and there were also things that you did in the beginning that I have never forgotten. You gave me tools. I remember, um, some of the amazing tools that you gave me to help me have a sense of security, to have a sense of safety. And then of course, the actual practice of EMDR, which is so amazing. It’s so difficult to do the work sometimes, but it’s also so important. It’s like, you know, you guys, like when you do a really tough workout, , like you gotta put in the work to get the result. Um, but it felt like there was a true outcome coming even as I was going through the difficult aspects of it.

(26:26)
And it, it, I used to try to explain what it was like to do, to be an a, a patient going through E-M-D-R, if you guys have seen the movie “Inside Out,” this is like the best way that I can explain it. There’s this place that, that they go what’s, which is like the memory bank, and it’s all of these glowing balls of light that they have just stacked up and stacked up and stacked up. And so I always pictured like the trauma memories as like these like gnarly black balls of light that, that were like stored in the memory bank, that, that were actually infecting all the other memories. Because that’s what happens with your, with the things that are what we call maladaptive. Correct. Is that right terminology? Yeah. So the maladaptive memories that didn’t actually get processed correctly in the beginning, those are like now infecting the rest of your memories.

(27:14)
And so you have these reactions to things that you can’t really control. It’s like bugs in your operating system if you want like a computer terminology for it. And it was like going through doing the work of the EMDR, you’re like changing the fabric back to something smooth. We can go back to that rug example where the rug was all bunched up and we’re like smoothing out the rug. And now when something comes up that used to be a real trigger or something that would, you would have like this unavoidable reaction that you had no control over, it’s no longer there, it’s just not even a trigger. You still have the memory of the thing, but it’s not lit up anymore. And I think that was so profound for me of like the experience of EMDR, of like how much it changed the fabric of my actual being.

(27:58)
Like I felt like I became like the version of myself. I was always meant to be through going through that work. And, um, so it makes a lot of sense. This care that’s taken throughout the process, especially in the beginning, because I’ve had Brent sum out why when, if I get to like send a friend to EMDR and she’s like, when do I get to do the e mdr? I’m like, let your therapist do these really important pieces at the beginning because they are going to help you get a better result in the long term. So I think it’s fascinating how it

Susie Morgan (28:32):

Works. There’s so many pieces that you just said that are so important that I wanna almost give the back of the house understanding of a bit. Please, please. The, the why. So that original question you asked of like, well, how do you know if you’re in the right place with your therapist? Yeah. And I think there’s that larger question of like, are you doing a therapy that actually changes the way the nervous system is holding the memories? And, uh, and, and so you’re re reworking that whole thing so you automatically respond differently. It’s not that manual control, but when you’re seeking out an EMDR therapist, whether or not they take this, uh, this first like section of the work really seriously is a really big component for deciding whether or not you’re in the right place.

Betty Rocker (29:22):

Mm.

Susie Morgan (29:22):

And oftentimes, this isn’t the fault of the therapist, it’s the fault of how it’s traditionally been trained where really it’s like you do kind of like this, this quick, uh, this quick intro and then you just jump into, uh, to processing trauma memories. But that’s where we have people having really bad experiences. And the main reason is because people, people aren’t necessarily ready for that yet. And or the, the therapist doesn’t necessarily have the, the readiness of having a good treatment plan in place in order to know why we’re gonna start here and go there and go there. And so when I was doing all of those early, uh, kind of pieces of work with you, it’s, it’s actually there, it’s twofold. One is, I actually, I’m, I’m purposefully mapping, I’m purposefully giving you tools that matter for your experience of being in the work, but I’m also watching for very, very key aspects that indicate your brain is ready to do this, that your nervous system can do certain things.

(30:28)
And so everything I’m doing has a dual purpose. It’s both getting you ready, building that readiness if I need to do more of something, but also seeing what’s there and seeing whether or not that that additional kind of prep work is ready. And then the other piece, and this is, this is just because I want to mention it, that piece about that adult, like strongest wisest self being there for little you, that is the core key feature to attachment repair. It is developing out that adult self to give little you what no one else has been able to give us fully and to draw from the models of those who have maybe in pieces and things like that. But ultimately, repairing the attachment system is knowing deep down that you’ve got you and that you’ve

Betty Rocker (31:19):

Got you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s so Well, that’s so well said. And, and this work is so profound because I think, um, our culture is not alone in being one that has a lot of addictive compulsive type of mm-hmm . Issues. Um, but it certainly has so many, and, and I think this must be something that presents in, in your practice so often is addiction type of work. Mm-hmm . Like so many people, I mean, we have addiction to shopping, to alcohol, to drugs, to sex, to, uh, how, I don’t know, so many different things. So I would imagine that, uh, EMDR is really beneficial in supporting the reduction of addictive behavior. And and how does it do that specifically? I,

Susie Morgan (32:07):

Well, one of the most recent, um, kind of important pieces of kind of connecting the dots that’s been made came through the ACEs study. And I’m not sure if you or your listeners are familiar with it, but it’s the adverse Childhood Experiences study. And like EMDR, it’s actually been around for almost as much time, but it didn’t really get any press until more recently. But it is a very basic study that, um, has just been done on enormous hoards of people at this point. Um, and it is even, um, replicated by the, the CDC at this point. So we’re able to see it’s true across populations that early childhood adverse experiences, even if they happen just once, they create a vulnerability in the nervous system to develop mental health issues, to develop physical health issues and to develop addictions. And so, and it’s exponentially more powerful than anyone would ever think.

(33:03)
And so addictions is something that we very much can see. Early childhood trauma really potentiates that vulnerability to addiction later. And what’s interesting in terms of EMDR therapy and trauma memory networks and all of that is this idea that addiction has really two components that are going on with memory networks. One is the trauma is a driver, so that that pain is going to drive you to the thing that eases the pain. The other thing though, is the pull of the addiction. And you can actually have maladaptively linked positive memories that are the, the key to the brain continuing to seek the high or the need being met by this addictive behavior or substance, even if there’s tons and tons of consequences, or if you never achieve that high to that degree. Again,

Betty Rocker (33:58):

I almost understand what you mean by positive maladaptive. It’s almost like it, can you just clarify that a little bit more? Yeah,

Susie Morgan (34:06):

Yeah, absolutely. So the example I learned from the person who I first learned this from, um, was an example of the, you know, a a little, a little boy who had an abusive father. And his dad was really, really into, um, playing cards, was really into poker. And, um, and later on, this guy has now is now presenting in therapy because he has a gambling addiction. He’s lost his house, he’s lost his family, he’s lost everything. So we’re gonna assume, okay, well, he learned about, he learned about gambling from little, so that’s just what he grew up to do, right? Like, it’s that simple, but it’s not, where it actually solidified in his brain was, so remember he has this trauma of neglect and, and abuse from his dad. Well, one day, you know, one of the guys isn’t there for the poker game. So dad invites his son to the poker table that is where his brain all of a sudden felt loved. His brain all of a sudden felt seen and included and noticed by his dad. And fireworks go off in the brain. And it’s like that soldering of something where it’s just like, Ooh, poker equals I’m loved, I’m lovable. And so from then on, doesn’t matter how much he loses, doesn’t matter all the consequences, the brain doesn’t even like pay attention to any of that data. It’s coming, but it doesn’t matter. He keeps seeking that need to be met at the poker table at whatever cost.

Betty Rocker (35:45):

Got it. Got it. That’s a great example, right? That made so much sense. You can see how addictions can form of so many different types because of the complexity of that layer, those layers together. Like that’s, and that must be very hard to unwind for people because of what a powerful urge that is, like at a deep core level to be loved, to be belong. These are deep human needs that we all have, and when they’re not met, when we’re younger, and then they have these layers on top of them, and we’re just out there trying to be grownups, dealing with life and all of our many responsibilities and, and repeating old patterns over and over and not understanding why, for instance. So who needs EMDR? Who would be a good candidate for EMDR, would you say? I mean, we’ve talked about a lot of things, but I think a lot of people listening are identifying certain things in what we’re talking about. So let’s just make it plain and simple. Like who would be a good candidate?

Susie Morgan (36:46):

Um, I suppose there’s someone out there who wouldn’t mm-hmm . Um, , but I haven’t met them. And, um, I mean, there are these people who really grew up with that really robust early attachment experience. Their needs were met. And, and I have seen those clients come in because they had one single really bad t like big T trauma, and yet their stuff resolves like that. Like that’s where you see this like magic happen. Like it’s, it can be a matter of two sessions and something horrific, just like is is fully reprocessed by the nervous system

Betty Rocker (37:24):

Because they have a robust and secure attachment style and security in themselves to start with. Their foundation is, is really strong. And then from there, healing is easier, I guess you would say, right?

Susie Morgan (37:37):

Yes. So they’re faced with traumas, they’re faced with different things, and their brain is like, oh, I’ve got this. And it, and it, it, you know, it takes that, that adaptive information memory network and just wraps it around and it’s just like, yep. Like I learned from that. Now it’s over and off you go. Hmm. So there are people out there who are like that, uh, they’re just more rare.

(38:00)
Hmm. The rest of us , and I say that including myself, have a lot more vulnerability to these different things. And so when someone is saying, you know, I’ve just always been anxious, or I’ve just always had these bouts of depression, that sort of thing, or this self-doubt, this self-confidence issue where I’m not reaching for that next level at work, or I’m not stepping out of, you know, like I, I know I should be able to do this, but I, but I’m, I’m stopping myself. I’m, I’m insecure, or I am, you know, repeating these relationship patterns or that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. All of these things, um, are things that make you a good candidate to step into an EMDR therapist’s office. Mm mm Then the difference is whether or not that EMDR therapist has eyes to see how to treat you. Have they done sufficient training in being able to really, really like, have that curiosity to, to look at what, what is all this connected to? Where did this, this learning take place that’s now left you in a pattern of, you know, responding in this way? What are all those memory networks? And is your brain ready to do the actual trauma memory reprocessing, or do we need to do a bunch of fro front loading so that we can get there? It’s oftentimes not the case that someone can’t do EMDR therapy. It just means someone might need to do some more sophisticated things to get their brain ready for it.

Betty Rocker (39:30):

You have some pretty amazing resources for people at different levels when it comes to EMDR. One thing that you have is, I remember the EMDR readiness course, which helps people like me figure out whether we’re ready or how, explain that for me, if you don’t mind.

Susie Morgan (39:50):

So this course has been around for a number of years, and it’s actually, I would attribute, uh, the triggering of creating that course to you actually, oh, stop . Because one day you sat down with me and you said, Susie, I am referring people out to EMDR therapy all the time now, and they’re not getting, uh, from their therapy process what I’m getting with you. And at that point, it caused me to self-reflect and say, am I actually doing something differently? Hmm. And, and I figured out I was, and it wasn’t just because I’m brilliant, it was really because I was really hungry to learn and insecure. Actually, my own insecurities were in there where I was like, I need to learn more, I need to learn more. I need to learn more. So I had, I had gone to so many different trainings by so many different experts in the field, but then my, my strength really is synthesizing things together, curating and synthesizing these materials into a system essentially.

(40:48)
And so over the years, there’s been a methodology that I’ve developed that started with that course and really starting to really like, kind of, uh, conceptualize it and make it more concrete that’s now developed out into some broader training programs that I can explain. But, but the readiness course is still available. It’s something that you can do on your own. It’s almost like a, a digital like workbook. And it takes you through the readiness process. So a lot of the steps that you and I did together in terms of those, those tools and those, those skills that you developed at the beginning, starting to really map out those trauma memory networks so that you can really do some work on your own and decide does this EMDR therapy thing makes sense for me? Hmm. The other thing is that can be done alongside a therapist, um, in their process with you.

(41:40)
For a lot of people, it’s really helpful to have the support of a therapist while they’re doing those processes. And the first module of that course says takes you through some questionnaire that say like, should, should you do this alone or not? Hmm. And so it, it can help you think through that process. The other thing that’s now available, that’s also on the self-help page of my website, which is precision emdr.com. So if you go to the self-help page, you’ll see two different things. One is that readiness course, but one is also a free 45 minute course that actually explains this, this tree concept that we’ve been talking about. Cool. So you’re able to visualize the trauma memory networks, that adaptive information light tree of information, so that if you start EMDR therapy, you’re going in really understanding that whole formulation of it. And it goes more into what processing looks like, that sort of thing and what’s happening in the brain during that. So, so that is free to just take a look at, there’s, um, no strings. Yeah.

Betty Rocker (42:45):

That’s an amazing gift. And what an amazing resource as well. And then I think you are also now, like you’ve said, you’ve developed your methodology, you’re now training other therapists at different, different levels from the graduate level to all the way to people who’ve been practicing for a long time. Is that what you were telling me? That’s amazing. What, what does that involve?

Susie Morgan (43:08):

So there’s two major pieces. One is we have an EMDRIA approved basic training, which they are the bigwigs. They, they, they take you through a fairly rigorous process when you’re developing a program to say, does it, you know, check all the boxes. And so we checked all the boxes and what was really exciting is, um, I was approved to be able to, to really use all of this readiness and the target sequencing, which is the, the why you do, which, which trauma memory first, that sort of thing. As well as all of these attachment pieces into our basic training program. And then we have also an advanced a set of courses. So it’s actually a total of 33 hours, part one and part two. Um, but part one actually goes through all of this readiness and, and fills in the gaps of what hasn’t been there in a lot of that traditional training that most therapists have gone through. And then part two goes into all of this fancy footwork around how do we repair the attachment system? How do we address these addictions? Um, and that sparkle that those maladaptively linked memories can have and all of that. So it’s, it’s a really robust advanced course that people can go through

Betty Rocker (44:20):

So much to know, so important to be a well-trained practitioner and for us as people seeking therapy to know as much as we can about this so that we can go into it eyes open, seeking this care. And also, you know, discern being discerning, I guess, about what we’re gonna receive. I think that’s, that’s so important. Well, you’ve shared your, uh, website with us and we can also follow you on social media, correct. Wanna say your, your handle,

Susie Morgan (44:55):

It’s Precision. EMDR. So it’s precision EMDR everywhere. So whether that’s the website or the handle on Instagram or Facebook, that’s, that’s where you can find me and find out what we are doing. ’cause I, it’s not just me, but I also have gathered a phenomenal team of experts. It’s actually one of the unique pieces of our program is everyone who is a consultant on our training team is an expert in EMDR, as well as oftentimes a specialty area or integration with another treatment model. So, so we can all be found there and it’s, um, it’s really hopefully going to be more and more a robust resource for referral sources and all of that for people all over the, all over the nation. Because we have people who are going through our trainings who are from all over the place.

Betty Rocker (45:42):

That’s wonderful and wonderful to think about all of the people who are potentially seeking EMDR or maybe didn’t know how beneficial EMDR could be for them. And now we’ll have an additional resource to come to for information about it, for seeking a practitioner for it, or practitioner seeking more training for it. It’s really wonderful what you are creating. And thank you for all the work that you do in this world to make it a better place. We appreciate you so much. So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and talking to us today and sharing all of this really valuable information and insights. And thank you for everything you’ve done for me as well. Like, I would not be this version of the Betty Rocker without you and all of your great work. So all of you guys listening, I’m so glad that you had a chance to meet Susie, ’cause she’s just incredible and I hope you look her up and look up her work. And Susie, is there any, like, last words, anything you wanna leave with us that I didn’t ask or anything you wanna say?

Susie Morgan (46:37):

Really, it’s just, um, wanting to express my gratefulness for the opportunity to come in here and talk about this and, and the, the, the platform that you are using across the board to support, especially women in their health on all aspects of things. And EMDR is something that, like you said, it’s a buzzword out there. People talk about it, but they oftentimes don’t know enough about it to understand how it could actually connect to them, how it could actually be, um, really maybe even more powerfully done if it’s something that they had a, you know, eh, experience with before. Things like that. So I’m just really grateful that this was important to you to do and, and just thank you for having me.

Betty Rocker (47:22):

Yay. Well, we look forward to talking to you again very soon. And, uh, thank you guys so much for listening. You can find all of the links and resources over on the show notes page for this podcast episode, as well as Susie’s links that she’s already shared. So look forward to talking to you again. Till next time, I’m Betty Rother and you are so awesome, so flawsome and amazing.